[asterisk-biz] RE: If money is not
a considerationwho givesthebestSIP termination??
Mike Hammett
asterisk-biz at ics-il.net
Thu Nov 23 16:50:41 MST 2006
Apparently some people take things a little more personal\serious than I do.
If you have that sort of volume, then you can justify layer two links into
your providers' networks.
Layer 2 links (whether cross-connects within the carrier hotel or some sort
of transport to another location) to your providers is every bit as good as
a DS3. You then peer your AS with their AS. Since your ASes would be
peers, traffic would logically flow over the cross connect. If something
happens to that link (assuming you have no other forms of redundancy), you
can resort to a public Internet path to save your butt. I am relatively new
to all of this, but I'm thinking that if you and your provider have
Level(3), they won't dump it off to PCCW just to pick it back up again. It
does not make fiscal or engineering sense.
I'm sure those that have deployed a network similar to what I described (and
am in process of building out) have enjoyed the same happiness with their
solution, however, they have a more flexible solution that has cost them
less. As the saying goes (I'm sure with some degree of slaughter)... No
one got fired for buying IBM, but many got promoted for implementing a
better solution.
Yes, the ICS that I started is a local WISP, VoIP operator, network support,
etc., etc. However, I am in process of securing racks, bandwidth, private
lines, etc. in several carrier hotels in the US and EU (possible
merger\acquisition of another provider with a presence in the US and Asia).
The clients that I have\am working with represent over 20k lines. I have
grown beyond the simple operation you take me for.
Am I pushing a product? No, I am not ready for customers. I'm just trying
to push against the "TDM is holier than thou" mentality when not needed.
GSM? Why? It sounds horrible. G.711 or G.729. I'm waiting for good
Asterisk support of wideband codecs for higher quality yet.
----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Totaro" <stotaro at asteriskhelpdesk.com>
To: "Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion"
<asterisk-biz at lists.digium.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] RE: If money is not a considerationwho
givesthebestSIP termination??
>I know how BGP and IGP work and if the ISP has policies to peer at a
>certain point than peering it is, you cannot say traffic always stays on
>your providers network, especially when speaking about links to the EU.
>Maybe it is better that the traffic is sent to a peer for a particular hop
>at a particular time (outage or overload). Blanket statements such as
>sharing a common ISP means that data does not cross peering points is
>simply incorrect.
> If an ISP has an absolute policy to NEVER peer traffic destined for a node
> on the same ISP then that is one ISP I would never deal with.
>
> "ALMOST does not count except in horse shoes and hand grenades." Neither
> of which would I ever consider basing 12,000 call a day 5million
> minute/mo, multi-million dollar call center on.
>
> Lets talk dollars and cents. Quantify the cost part of "IP connections
> can be made much more fault tolerant than TDM connections at a much lower
> cost." I understand the fault tolerance (but not so much in your no
> peering scenario). Cost of what? The cost of redundancy? Are you
> including the costs of lost revenue, sales, an hour of downtime costing
> $25k? Lets talk numbers since we both understand how the public internet
> works (or doesn't for realtime apps). Neither my voice DS3 nor my
> multilink 3xT1s have ever gone down and have always provided PERFECT voice
> quality.
>
> If you are pushing a product and agenda, and I am sure you are since this
> is the biz list ( http://www.ics-il.com/voip.php ), then I understand the
> motivations behind your posts. Otherwise I am not quite sure. It appears
> that you are looking for residential and SoHo customers. This is nowhere
> near the scale or class of service that I need or represent.
>
> I would prefer doing a point to point multilink or similar with someone
> like www.thevpf.com or www.teliax.com who have POPs in the major carrier
> hotels using GSM.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve Totaro
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> I know how the Internet works. I'm about to get my own AS for 7 sites in
>> the US and 2 in the EU with more to come.
>>
>> If both endpoints share a common ISP, its ALMOST as good as having a
>> private IP link. The data does not cross peering points and your
>> provider is solely responsible for the quality of the traffic. Better
>> than that is to purchase layer 2 services available from MANY providers.
>> If you get your own AS, you can then peer with your VoIP partners as well
>> as one or more transit providers. This then provides a failover if your
>> private link goes down. IP connections can be made much more fault
>> tolerant than TDM connections at a much lower cost.
>>
>>
>> ----
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Totaro"
>> <stotaro at asteriskhelpdesk.com>
>> To: "Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion"
>> <asterisk-biz at lists.digium.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 10:39 AM
>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] RE: If money is not a considerationwho
>> givesthebest SIP termination??
>>
>>
>>> And how do you do this over the public internet? Do you control the
>>> routers? Do they observe your QoS settings? Do they guarantee a
>>> certain router will not have too much latency or packets will arrive in
>>> the same order or even traverse the same path? No they dont.
>>> "Make the network the VoIP is running over better." is pretty difficult
>>> when you do not control the network (ie the internet) and when data is
>>> handed off between ISPs, it becomes impossible. Do a traceroute to just
>>> about anything and you will see that your traffic is going over multiple
>>> routers owned by multiple companies and tinkered with by multitudes of
>>> techs on daily basis.
>>>
>>> As I said, TDM or point to point data links are the only way to go if
>>> price is not an issue.
>>> Convince me otherwise.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Steve Totaro
>>>
>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>> What's the point in using TDM anymore. Your problem with the quality
>>>> isn't with VoIP itself, but what it's running over. Make the network
>>>> the VoIP is running over better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Totaro"
>>>> <stotaro at asteriskhelpdesk.com>
>>>> To: "Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion"
>>>> <asterisk-biz at lists.digium.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:02 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] RE: If money is not a consideration who
>>>> givesthebest SIP termination??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If money was not a consideration then why would you go with SIP at all
>>>>> unless it is coming over point to point data links?
>>>>> Global Crossing offers SIP service but the cost is basically the same
>>>>> as TDM (at least with our agreement) and comes as dedicated bandwidth.
>>>>> The upside of this is no TDM equipment on our end such as Sangoma or
>>>>> Digium cards and dedicated servers to translate our DS3 (28 T1s) into
>>>>> SIP (a fairly large hardware investment, although, small in the TDM
>>>>> world). I also assume that calls delivered by a major carrier over
>>>>> dedicated lines would have absolutely no echo issues and negligable
>>>>> ping times as well (another huge plus).
>>>>>
>>>>> Why risk SIP over the public internet if money is not a consideration
>>>>> but quality is? The answer there is TDM.
>>>>>
>>>>> That being said, if money *is* an issue but so is quality (knowing the
>>>>> trade-offs, ins and outs of VoIP), who can offer origination and
>>>>> termination with LNP of 1,000 toll free numbers and approx 5million
>>>>> minutes a month? Mostly inbound toll free for a call center
>>>>> application and outbound of about 1million minutes (quickly ramping
>>>>> up) of outbound LD to the US 48 for a calling card application? We
>>>>> could easily see 10 million minutes in the next six months or so.
>>>>>
>>>>> On top of that, who if anyone can offer a co-lo in the DC metro area
>>>>> (other areas considered) to keep latency down?
>>>>>
>>>>> If anyone can do that, I would LOVE to talk to you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> jay kordic wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have multiple partners that are USA based companies and resell USA
>>>>>> Tier 1 networks such as Verizon/MCI, Level 3/Broadwing, Qwest and
>>>>>> Global Crossing. Most of these resellers have no minimum commitment,
>>>>>> bill by LATA/OCN and can mix and match underlying carriers for both
>>>>>> cost effectiveness and redundancy. Please contact me to discuss a
>>>>>> program that could be a great fit for you. At least give me an
>>>>>> opportunity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jay Kordic
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Horizon Group
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wholesale/Retail VOIP and TDM services
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 951-780-3131 (office)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 951-850-0887 (mobile)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 515-322-0273 (fax)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MSN IM-jaykordic at hotmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yahoo IM-jaykordic at yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com
>>>>>> [mailto:asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com] *On Behalf Of *Alan
>>>>>> Frisch
>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 22, 2006 12:57 PM
>>>>>> *To:* asterisk-biz at lists.digium.com
>>>>>> *Subject:* [asterisk-biz] RE: If money is not a consideration who
>>>>>> gives thebest SIP termination??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Forgive me if I've had me head in the sand for too long... but when
>>>>>> did Bulgaria become a part of the United States?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Mike,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are a US carrier offering excellent quality A-Z termination,
>>>>>> servicing
>>>>>> successfully retail corporate and individual networks for over 6
>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please contact me offline to discuss in details.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks and best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albena Trencheva
>>>>>> Nutel Communications LLC
>>>>>> Tel: +359 2 4900442
>>>>>> Mob; +359 88 843 31 97
>>>>>> Email: <mailto:atrencheva at nutel.cc <mailto:atrencheva at nutel.cc>>
>>>>>> atrencheva at nutel.cc <mailto:atrencheva at nutel.cc>
>>>>>> <http://www.nutel.cc/> www.nutel.cc <http://www.nutel.cc>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com --
>
> asterisk-biz mailing list
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
>
More information about the asterisk-biz
mailing list