[asterisk-biz] Ribbit.com ?
Steve Totaro
stotaro at first-notification.com
Tue Dec 18 13:09:47 CST 2007
"Should" or "has to" be is the question here. If developed for an
in-house or even a hosted app, there is no mandate that the code be
given back to anybody. I am not into telling people what they should
and shouldn't do, I offer advice based on my very limited knowledge only.
The decision to share is up to the person holding the code and the
contract that I signed and am therefore bound to.
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
Jim Capp wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I'm confused. Isn't the code that was developed related to the JIAX
> already GPL and therefore should be returned to the community anyway?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Steve Totaro wrote:
>
>> Dean,
>>
>> I wish it were mine to give back.
>>
>> I worked with/for a group. It is not my IP since it was not my code and
>> even the stuff I did myself (not very useful anyways) was on contracted
>> time. The contract was very specific about who owned the IP to any code
>> developed. Technically, by contract I should not have any code in my
>> possession at this point.
>>
>> The point is, the JIAX code could and has been easily modified to create
>> a free Java web based IAX softphone if someone just did it. To me, that
>> indicates lack of demand (in the opensource area anyways).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Steve Totaro
>>
>> Dean Collins wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Steve,
>>> I'm confused about why you decided not to use your development or offer
>>> it back to the community?
>>>
>>> If you've got it and don't want to use it I'm sure there are some people
>>> on the list that would like to see what you've done and implement it on
>>> a no-support basis.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dean Collins
>>> Cognation Pty Ltd
>>> dean at cognation.net
>>> +1-212-203-4357
>>> +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>>>> bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Steve Totaro
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 18 December 2007 10:49 AM
>>>> To: Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion
>>>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] Ribbit.com ?
>>>>
>>>> Dean,
>>>>
>>>> I think you may be right on the money with JIAX and the real demand
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> for a
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> web based phone. I worked with a group that "fixed" the freely
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> available
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> JIAX code (by Mikael Magnusson http://www.hem.za.org/jiaxclient ) but
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> had
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> no interest in giving the code back to wild, nor selling it. It did
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> not
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> take a few good Java guys very long to get it working the same as
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Mexuar's.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I was able to compile a workign jar from source myself with a few
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> changes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> and I am not a Dev guy, let alone a Java guy at all (but it took me
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> better part of week).
>>>>
>>>> I think that the demand is not really there (yet). Most real world
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> people
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> would rather pick up a real phone and dial a toll free number than don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> headset with mic and make a call via browser. I think it has some wow
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> power
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> to "our kind", but I think the average Joe would not use this until
>>>> convergence is more complete to avoid putting on headphones (like a
>>>> bluetooth link from PC to a hardphone or cell).
>>>>
>>>> It is similar to many companies that I consult for. The people in the
>>>> company want to know the bare essentials to use the phones. Sometimes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> higher ups are interested in advanced functionality but more often
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> than not,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> they just want something to replace (insert phone system here) in
>>>> functionality with a few remote phones or remote offices. During the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> sales
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> cycle however, they are wowed by the possibilities which certainly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> helps and
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> stands out from the crowd since there are no material nor licensing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> costs,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> just time.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Steve Totaro
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dean Collins" <Dean at cognation.net>
>>>> To: "Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion"
>>>> <asterisk-biz at lists.digium.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:42 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] Ribbit.com ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> My suggestion was a $25 one off license per simultaneous call.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eg you run a small asterisk server in your office where people may
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> use
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> it from time to time then it's a one off $25 fee.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you run a website with a community of users who get together to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> chat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> with each other and want to restrict it to 10 people at once then
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> your
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> fee would be $250
>>>>>
>>>>> And lets face it if you cant/wont pay $25 then you aren't really
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> serious
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> at any price.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question in the founders mind always was....how many people
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> actually
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> want to buy this product (at any fee) and how many would use it if
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> it
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> was free but really don't want it bad enough to fire up a paypal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> account
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> or similar.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the end of the day Tim spent a long time developing the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> application
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> (and at only 125k in size it's a work of art), office space, rent,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> food
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> and telephony, sales people/tech support salaries all cost money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> Mexuar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> needs a return on their investment to cover their costs and a profit
>>>>> return.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the end of the day they chose to go with the high end unlimited
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> use
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> for a single reasonable fee of $US2,000 which means any service
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> provider
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> or large company could implement it quite easily and they offered an
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> ASP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> service for one off licenses with a monthly fee.
>>>>>
>>>>> What confuses me about this whole space is JIAX.
>>>>>
>>>>> If there is an existing free application available, albeit free and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> not
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> perfect, why haven't more people chosen to spend time fixing this or
>>>>> offered bounties for it's improvement.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the end of the day maybe there just aren't as many people looking
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> use this functionality as 'perceived' and my proposal is wrong. As
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> it's
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> not my investment I think the founders of Mexuar made the right
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> choice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Will be interesting to see if a lot of people chime in on this
>>>>> discussion and I'm shown to be right and there is a market for $25
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> per
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> simultaneous call licenses.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dean Collins
>>>>> Cognation Pty Ltd
>>>>> dean at cognation.net
>>>>> +1-212-203-4357
>>>>> +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>>>>>> bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Rubenstein
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 18 December 2007 7:33 AM
>>>>>> To: Mike Clark
>>>>>> Cc: Asterisk -Biz
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] Ribbit.com ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> $5 per end user is way too much for little Web apps like
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> chatrooms or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> sales/cust-svc chats, or anything where a given random user from
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> public on the Web isn't going to return at least $10 a year in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> profit
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> from which that license can be paid. Even $5 per running instance
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> too
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> high. The problem isn't so much the price, but just a per-instance
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> fee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> as a limit to scale.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The solution is a license fee on a middleware server with
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> traffic
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> capacities, and a free client. But if the middleware does't offer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> value
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> of its own (beyond being the "key" for the clients to work), then
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> it's
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> going to be a nuisance. In any case, the client should be free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> Which
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> one impediment to widespread development, which is a reason it
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> isn't
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> here yet. But since there is some development, with those bizmodel
>>>>>> constraints, I'd think there'd be several options already for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> "webpage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> voice" integrated with the PSTN. These same business constraints
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> don't
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> seem to have eliminated any number of free clients floating around
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> seeing lots of use. Which are then harnessed to support business
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> models
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> relating to the business, not to the software used by the business.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 2007-12-18 at 07:20 -0500, Mike Clark wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They key is not creating a barrier to entry. It would be ideal if
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> I
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> could license a "Mexuar-like" client in small lots of 5 or 10 at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> price
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> of around $10 per license. You might even give away a "free"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> developer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> pack of 2 licenses so folks can easily get started. This all
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> enables
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> little gut to get in the game, and then maybe hit a homerun
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> resulting in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> thousands of licenses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dean Collins wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But Mike the question remains how much is it worth to you to be
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> able to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> do this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dean Collins
>>>>>>>> Cognation Pty Ltd
>>>>>>>> dean at cognation.net
>>>>>>>> +1-212-203-4357
>>>>>>>> +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>> [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>> bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Mike Clark
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 17 December 2007 5:22 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: email at mattruby.com; Commercial and Business-Oriented
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>> Asterisk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> Discussion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] Ribbit.com ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matthew Rubenstein wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dean, how would you describe Mexuar, with its embeddable
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> but
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> proprietary IAX applet, in that context?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...snipped a bunch..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not Dean, but I'll comment here.I evaluated Mexuar and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>> really
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> liked
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it, but they had no good mechanism for a small developer to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>> get
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> started.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They wanted a substantial up front licensing fee to get going.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you turned out to be successful, it was a good deal because it
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> was a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> time fee.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ribbit has a totally different model as they are a full blown
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> ITSP and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> have provided a Flex/Actionscript API to their Flash phone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> component
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> no charge to developers. I have an app ready to roll as soon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>> as
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> they
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> completely live.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would love to see a similar type API to a Flash SIP or IAX2
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> component
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> where I could access my own Asterisk or Freeswitch server.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike Clark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (C) Matthew Rubenstein
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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