[asterisk-biz] RE: If money is not a considerationwho givesthebest SIP termination??

Steve Totaro stotaro at asteriskhelpdesk.com
Thu Nov 23 11:39:35 MST 2006


I know how BGP and IGP work and if the ISP has policies to peer at a 
certain point than peering it is, you cannot say traffic always stays on 
your providers network, especially when speaking about links to the EU.  
Maybe it is better that the traffic is sent to a peer for a particular 
hop at a particular time (outage or overload).  Blanket statements such 
as sharing a common ISP means that data does not cross peering points is 
simply incorrect. 

If an ISP has an absolute policy to NEVER peer traffic destined for a 
node on the same ISP then that is one ISP I would never deal with.

"ALMOST does not count except in horse shoes and hand grenades."  
Neither of which would I ever consider basing 12,000 call a day 5million 
minute/mo, multi-million dollar call center on.

Lets talk dollars and cents.  Quantify the cost part of "IP connections 
can be made much more fault tolerant than TDM connections at a much 
lower cost."  I understand the fault tolerance (but not so much in your 
no peering scenario).  Cost of what?  The cost of redundancy?  Are you 
including the costs of lost revenue, sales, an hour of downtime costing 
$25k?  Lets talk numbers since we both understand how the public 
internet works (or doesn't for realtime apps).  Neither my voice DS3 nor 
my multilink 3xT1s have ever gone down and have always provided PERFECT 
voice quality.

If you are pushing a product and agenda, and I am sure you are since 
this is the biz list ( http://www.ics-il.com/voip.php ), then I 
understand the motivations behind your posts.  Otherwise I am not quite 
sure.  It appears that you are looking for residential and SoHo 
customers.  This is nowhere near the scale or class of service that I 
need or represent.

I would prefer doing a point to point multilink or similar with someone 
like www.thevpf.com or www.teliax.com who have POPs in the major carrier 
hotels using GSM.

Thanks,
Steve Totaro

Mike Hammett wrote:
> I know how the Internet works.  I'm about to get my own AS for 7 sites 
> in the US and 2 in the EU with more to come.
>
> If both endpoints share a common ISP, its ALMOST as good as having a 
> private IP link.  The data does not cross peering points and your 
> provider is solely responsible for the quality of the traffic.  Better 
> than that is to purchase layer 2 services available from MANY 
> providers.  If you get your own AS, you can then peer with your VoIP 
> partners as well as one or more transit providers.  This then provides 
> a failover if your private link goes down. IP connections can be made 
> much more fault tolerant than TDM connections at a much lower cost.
>
>
> ----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Totaro" 
> <stotaro at asteriskhelpdesk.com>
> To: "Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion" 
> <asterisk-biz at lists.digium.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 10:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] RE: If money is not a considerationwho 
> givesthebest SIP termination??
>
>
>> And how do you do this over the public internet?  Do you control the 
>> routers?  Do they observe your QoS settings?  Do they guarantee a 
>> certain router will not have too much latency or packets will arrive 
>> in the same order or even traverse the same path?  No they dont.
>> "Make the network the VoIP is running over better." is pretty 
>> difficult when you do not control the network (ie the internet) and 
>> when data is handed off between ISPs, it becomes impossible.  Do a 
>> traceroute to just about anything and you will see that your traffic 
>> is going over multiple routers owned by multiple companies and 
>> tinkered with by multitudes of techs on daily basis.
>>
>> As I said, TDM or point to point data links are the only way to go if 
>> price is not an issue.
>> Convince me otherwise.
>> Thanks,
>> Steve Totaro
>>
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>> What's the point in using TDM anymore.  Your problem with the 
>>> quality isn't with VoIP itself, but what it's running over.  Make 
>>> the network the VoIP is running over better.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Totaro" 
>>> <stotaro at asteriskhelpdesk.com>
>>> To: "Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion" 
>>> <asterisk-biz at lists.digium.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:02 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] RE: If money is not a consideration who 
>>> givesthebest SIP termination??
>>>
>>>
>>>> If money was not a consideration then why would you go with SIP at 
>>>> all unless it is coming over point to point data links?
>>>> Global Crossing offers SIP service but the cost is basically the 
>>>> same as TDM (at least with our agreement) and comes as dedicated 
>>>> bandwidth.  The upside of this is no TDM equipment on our end such 
>>>> as Sangoma or Digium cards and dedicated servers to translate our 
>>>> DS3 (28 T1s) into SIP (a fairly large hardware investment, 
>>>> although, small in the TDM world).  I also assume that calls 
>>>> delivered by a major carrier over dedicated lines would have 
>>>> absolutely no echo issues and negligable ping times as well 
>>>> (another huge plus).
>>>>
>>>> Why risk SIP over the public internet if money is not a 
>>>> consideration but quality is?  The answer there is TDM.
>>>>
>>>> That being said, if money *is* an issue but so is quality (knowing 
>>>> the trade-offs, ins and outs of VoIP), who can offer origination 
>>>> and termination with LNP of 1,000 toll free numbers and approx 
>>>> 5million minutes a month?  Mostly inbound toll free for a call 
>>>> center application and outbound of about 1million minutes (quickly 
>>>> ramping up) of outbound LD to the US 48 for a calling card 
>>>> application?  We could easily see 10 million minutes in the next 
>>>> six months or so.
>>>>
>>>> On top of that, who if anyone can offer a co-lo in the DC metro 
>>>> area (other areas considered) to keep latency down?
>>>>
>>>> If anyone can do that, I would LOVE to talk to you.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> jay kordic wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have multiple partners that are USA based companies and resell 
>>>>> USA Tier 1 networks such as Verizon/MCI, Level 3/Broadwing, Qwest 
>>>>> and Global Crossing. Most of these resellers have no minimum 
>>>>> commitment, bill by LATA/OCN and can mix and match underlying 
>>>>> carriers for both cost effectiveness and redundancy. Please 
>>>>> contact me to discuss a program that could be a great fit for you. 
>>>>> At least give me an opportunity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay Kordic
>>>>>
>>>>> The Horizon Group
>>>>>
>>>>> Wholesale/Retail VOIP and TDM services
>>>>>
>>>>> 951-780-3131 (office)
>>>>>
>>>>> 951-850-0887 (mobile)
>>>>>
>>>>> 515-322-0273 (fax)
>>>>>
>>>>> MSN IM-jaykordic at hotmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Yahoo IM-jaykordic at yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com 
>>>>> [mailto:asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com] *On Behalf Of *Alan 
>>>>> Frisch
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 22, 2006 12:57 PM
>>>>> *To:* asterisk-biz at lists.digium.com
>>>>> *Subject:* [asterisk-biz] RE: If money is not a consideration who 
>>>>> gives thebest SIP termination??
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Forgive me if I've had me head in the sand for too long... but 
>>>>> when did Bulgaria become a part of the United States?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Hello Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>>     We are a US carrier offering excellent quality A-Z termination,
>>>>>     servicing
>>>>>     successfully retail corporate and individual networks for over 6
>>>>>     years.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Please contact me offline to discuss in details.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Thanks and best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Albena Trencheva
>>>>>     Nutel Communications LLC
>>>>>     Tel: +359 2 4900442
>>>>>     Mob; +359 88 843 31 97
>>>>>     Email:  <mailto:atrencheva at nutel.cc <mailto:atrencheva at nutel.cc>>
>>>>>     atrencheva at nutel.cc <mailto:atrencheva at nutel.cc>
>>>>>     <http://www.nutel.cc/> www.nutel.cc <http://www.nutel.cc>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
>



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