[Asterisk-Users] Sipura 3000 FXO

[Joe Greco]

> On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:12:10 -0500 (CDT), Joe Greco <jgreco at ns.sol.net> wrote:
> 
> > A company with all digital phones is probably big enough that they're also
> > configuring their network via a DHCP server,
> 
> As I said, the crappiest PBX from NTT that maxes out at 8 phones is
> all-digital. I wouldn't consider a company with 1 to 8 employees a big
> company.

In most small companies, those 8 phones are at 8 desks, which have at least
half a dozen computers.  There are always exceptions.

> Network? Most of the companies that approach us about IP telephony or
> open source PBXes don't have a network. They have a single PC plugged
> in to a DSL modem and the others are "connected" by "sneakernet" using
> USB Flash memory disks.

Wow, that's really bizarre.  Well, in the current virus environment, it
probably works in their favor, but usually we see these sorts of customers
having some sort of little DSL gateway that happily does DHCP and NAT, and
it's actually quite difficult and unusual for a small DSL-connected 
business to not have such a setup.  With hubs and NIC's being really very
cheap, and support being built in to pretty much everything, networking 
isn't the challenge it was ten or fifteen years ago.  With the advent of
NAT and DHCP, most of it is plug and go to the point where even home users
frequently network their PC's.

> > A company with all digital phones is not likely to be ordering one analog
> > phone line and then buying a consumer-grade device to translate.
> 
> You really shouldn't make assumptions about places you haven't been
> to. The world is a lot bigger than just the US and many things outside
> of US borders are a lot different.

Well, I've been to a lot of places, many of them outside the US.

> A small company using the smallest PBX from NTT (which is all digital)
> will likely want to save long distance charges and if only because
> they already got ripped off on the 10 year PBX lease. For that they
> are likely to order IP phone service, which in Japan is not what you
> would think IP phone service should be. Instead, it is an analog phone
> jack in a ADSL modem. Now, that company has a problem because none of
> their phones will work on the analog line that comes out of the DSL
> modem.
> 
> They can buy an analog FXO interface board and have NTT "upgrade"
> their PBX, but that might cost them a few thousand dollars over the
> remainder of their leasing contract.
> 
> They could buy an analog phone, yes, but then only the person at the
> desk where that phone is placed will be able to make calls using the
> cheaper "IP" phone service. They are looking for ways to distribute
> that one line so that it can be shared amonst at least three or four
> employees.
> 
> That's the point when they call us. We then tell them that "real" IP
> phones, not analog phones are the answer to the distribution problem
> but that they need a little converter box.
> 
> That's where devices like the Sipura-3000 come in. So, now we have
> just spent an immense effort on re-educating them on how universal IP
> phones are and all the rest of it and the first thing that happens is
> that an analog phone is needed to configure that converter box.

Or a DHCP server, which you probably already want to have around for 
those IP phones.

> That sort of thing doesn't go down well with Japanese customers. They
> think you are not telling them the whole story and that you have
> something to hide. Setting up servers is not a good idea either
> because they only bought into that little converter box for its
> simplicity not requiring big apparatus.

So you buy a Digium card and you stick it in their Asterisk server
instead.  Except that you'll counter that with "but they don't *HAVE*
an Asterisk server", and I'll counter that with "So why the heck are
you whining about this on the Asterisk list", or something like that,
which brings that line of argument to a preemptive end.

So instead you use the built-in network port on one of those un-networked
PC's to temporarily run a DHCP server and away you go.  No phone.  No
laptop.  They even have a DSL connection so you can download the DHCP 
server if you were sloppy enough not to bring it.

I'm still failing to see what the big stink's about.

> As for the notebook, we will need that anyway to configure the IP
> phones, don't we?

We do?  Odd, I have yet to touch a laptop here while doing any VoIP work.

> As for keeping an analog phone around, sure, now that I know, I can do
> that, but I would rather do without because I have already got enough
> junk in my office. Space is very much constrained in Japan. So you are
> happy for every piece of garbage that you can get rid of.

Well, I can certainly appreciate that, but the scenario you describe is
quite solvable in a variety of ways.

> > Even so, most companies do have a fax machine, which is quite sufficient to
> > do the programming, as long as it's got a call progress speaker.\
> 
> I already told you that fax machines in small companies are going out
> of fashion. This is because the analog line that the fax is connected
> to represents a value of 700 USD, which is what a line costs when you
> purchase it. If you sell the line on the second hand market, you can
> get some of that money back. If you start a new company, you would
> rather avoid that cost.

I guess that's not the trend I've seen.  The trend I've seen in small
offices is towards small "all-in-one" gadgets, which combine your printer,
scanner, fax, and copier all in a tiny little gadget like the HP Officejet
4210 or smaller.  I don't really know what trends in phone line pricing
might be driving fax machines out of fashion in Japan, but that doesn't
seem to be true in most other places.

> Then again, a fax machine takes away space which is scarce over here.
> A PC is there anyway and a scanner takes less space as it can be put
> in a drawer or on a pull-out shelf.

A PSCF usually takes less space than a scanner plus a printer.  :-)

> > So, note to self, if configuring Sipuras in Japan, we can:
> > 
> > 1) Make sure the install network supports DHCP, or
> > 
> > 2) Bring along a cheap $10 POTS phone, or
> 
> More like $20 and that one didn't actually work on the SPA, maybe
> because it only does pulse dialling.

Where in the world did you find a new POTS phone that only does pulse
dial?  Wow.  :-)

> > 3) Bring along a laptop with DHCP server, or
> > 
> > 4) Do what you suggest, which is getting Sipura to set a factory default
> >    of a known private IP address, and then be sure to bring along a laptop,
> >    configure it so that it can talk to that IP address, go log into the
> >    Sipura, manually change its IP configuration to the needed address, then
> >    reconfigure the laptop back to whatever it had previously been set up to,
> >    and of course make sure you don't hook up more than one unconfigured
> >    Sipura at a time.
> > 
> > Which three of these are simpler.  Hmm.  :-)
> 
> If you have a Mac, 4 is the simplest. Takes about 5 seconds total and
> it thus far more convenient than carrying an analog phone on an
> overcrowded Tokyo commuter train.

Again, assumes you /have/ a Mac laptop readily available.  Perhaps in 
Tokyo, that /would/ be easier to obtain than a POTS phone, but it does
not seem to be the case most elsewehere.

I would still think 3 would be easier, and 1 would be almost mandatory
if deploying IP phones, and 2 ... well, I carry a test set in my tool
box, so maybe I'm biased on that one.

> Perhaps as you make it sound so difficult, perhaps if I was
> unfortunate enough to have to use Windoze, then I might find it far
> more convenient to carry excess baggage on an overcrowded Tokyo train,
> too. But then I am lucky enough to be totally Windoze free, so I
> wouldn't know.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.  If I were to say anything
at all, I'd say the laptop itself is excess baggage, given the scenarios
you've presented.  A laptop doesn't weigh any more for having Windows on
it (though I suspect if I put Windows on my laptop, it'd run a hell of a
lot /slower/ than FreeBSD does).

> > > I personally look
> > > forward to an analog phone free environment.
> > 
> > Don't we all.  That doesn't mean that it's not reasonable to carry around
> > a buttset for those times when you need to poke at an analog circuit.
> 
> I guess I have to convince one of those NTT engineers to "lose" one of
> those tiny pocket ones they carry around. Maybe one of them will trade
> it for a Grandstream. You should see their faces when they try to find
> an RJ-11 on an IP phone that gives them a dial tone without a phone
> wire being plugged in :-)

Toys are always good to have.  The more, the merrier!

> > > Now, if Sipura would provide a factory set SIP login on which I could
> > > connect to the configuration IVR menu from a SIP phone out of the box,
> > > then I'd say, yes, that'd be neat.
> > 
> > That'd be nice, too.  However, the biggest problem would seem to be
> > establishing IP connectivity to begin with,
> 
> Take a look at how an Xserve is bootstrapped for the first time using
> a Powerbook as a GUI terminal on the Ethernet. That works without any
> network configuration. All you do is put the OSX install CD into the
> Xserve, press some button on the front panel while you reboot and have
> the Powerbook run the setup assistant. It's amazing to see how easy
> things can be even though they seemed so difficult to do. All it takes
> is a company with the right mind set, like say BMW, Apple, Sony, Wally
> Yachts, most coffe machine manufacturers etc. Unfortunately, Sipura is
> not amongst them, nor is M$, nor are most VCR manufacturers.

I suspect the process you mention only works if they're all on the same
segment.  I'm sure it only works that nicely if you actually /have/ that 
second laptop computer.

While I fully understand your Microsoft hostility, I have seen little
reason for you to class Sipura in with that ilk.  They've provided
reasonable means of configuring IP on both types of ports available on
the unit.  It's not like they want you to do some bizarro propietary
Xerox-NS-encapsulated-in-IP solution.  They provide DHCP on the net
port, and voice/DTMF on the POTS port.

Note also that Sony is well known for its proprietary technology
implementations; look at stuff like ATRAC, memory stick, etc., etc.
so if you think they have the "right mind set", I beg to differ.  They
make some damn fine products, of course.

> > I'd like to
> > see a serial port as well, myself, but that's many years of personal
> > preference for OOB management.
> 
> Indeed, but that would make the device at least $2 more expensive ;-)

Yes, sadly.

> > > > address.  But I sure wouldn't want that solution to replace the POTS
> > > > configuration.
> > >
> > > nobody said "replace".
> > 
> > Whatever.
> 
> what I meant was, there is no reason why the unit couldn't allow you
> to change the factory default IP address or DHCP on/off from an analog
> phone anyway, if you are so inclined to use that route.

Actually, I think there /was/ an IP address configured in our unit when
it arrived, but ISTR it was some random private network address.  I was
actually playing with the voice menu system so I wasn't paying too much
attention to the actual data.

Why not turn it around?

Why don't you simply prep the unit at your shop before going out to a
customer site?  You /can/ program the thing to have a static IP address,
after all.

In the end, I don't really see what the big fuss is.

... JG
-- 
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN)
With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.