[Asterisk-Dev] RFC: Moderating the Asterisk Mailing Lists

[Gregory Junker]

> The potential for any open-source project is highly subjective.  While I agree 
> with you in theory, who are you to say what Asterisk's potential is?  (Yes, 
> this is a bit of devil's advocacy here.)

Going back to the sole Asterisk raison d'etre (sorry, I don't know the 
keystrokes for the special French characters): for Mark to sell Digium 
hardware. It really is that simple.

> 
> I think a lot of trouble can be saved if the -dev list were kept hidden and 
> out of the eye of the newbies -- if they've got a true -dev question, they 
> will be able to find the -dev list.  It's not so much an elitist thing as it 
> is a "if you don't know if this is the list to ask in, it isn't." kind of 
> thing.

Right, no one is arguing that I don't think. I fully agree that newbie 
questions (unless they are related to something someone hacking on the 
code has to ask) should be directed to the -users list.


>>do not realize exists. Asterisk is a HORRIBLY designed project from a
>>usability standpoint. Asterisk is an FANTASTICALLY designed project from
>>a technical standpoint.
> 
> 
> Correct -- So if you're able and willing to help with the former, great.  
> Otherwise Asterisk's "potential" as you put it will not be met.  It's sad but 
> true.

I am doing what I can (in what time I have) to put together a means of 
administering an Asterisk installation of arbitrary size and topology, 
in a standards-based fashion. It's not difficult, just time-consuming.

> 
> No engineer likes doing documentation.  You're going to find it difficult to 
> find someone to do it, and whinging about "achieving potential" and "scaring 
> off newbies" isn't going to convince anyone.
> 
> Simply put: step up or step out.  

I would if I knew enough about the intracacies of Asterisk to put 
together something useful. Others already are. In the context of the 
project mentioned above, documentation will be provided, of course. But 
then, if I get it done the way I envision, it won't be needed except for 
the advanced user and above.

>>So if you want the project to remain within the community of technical
>>users only, by all means continue to berate the new users for asking
>>basic questions.
> 
> 
> To be perfectly honest -- until it becomes an issue nobody is going to care.  
> I don't think (and I personally don't) care if Asterisk becomes a household 
> name.  I am making good money off of consulting and showing people what it 
> can do and NONE of these people gives a rat's ass if they get berated for 
> posting to -dev.  Hell none of them gives a rat's ass to look at a config 
> file.  They are coming to me to make it work for them, and *I* care about the 
> config files and berating newbies <g>.  I'm in the business of making 
> Asterisk work.  They're in whatever business they are in and need phones.

I am not speaking of "scaring off newbies", at least not those that are 
trying to use it in their house for an incoming line or two. I *AM* 
speaking of scaring off potential commercial clients, with crass 
rudeness in a public venue, by many of the those doing the most 
berating. Until that sh*t stops, anyone who might have been 
investigating Asterisk as a viable alternative for their needs (in 
preparation, perhaps, for selecting a consultant or contractor) now has 
a distinct attitude about the entire Asterisk project (and its products) 
as being run by a bunch of elitist snobs who could not care less about 
the user. For someone doing a bit of advance research, a supported Cisco 
proprietary solution just started looking a WHOLE lot better.

> 
> Really I think it all comes down to the development process (and developers) 
> being "available" to the general public.  You simply don't hear the Nortel 

They shouldn't be. That's a matter of project management. Problem is, 
most of the berating on the -users list comes from those that do a lot 
of talking and little of helping the project. Developers should be 
buffered from the user by a layer of support. For those that bought 
Digium hardware (includes me) that layer ought to be Digium itself, at 
least according to the terms of sale as I understood them.

Now, if those who participate in this list are actually adding real 
value to the Asterisk proposition by virtue of additional features or 
stability by contribution to the source codebase, which in turn serves 
to sell more Digium hardware, then absolutely, Digium should provide 
that buffer, either in terms of point-of-first-contact or by moderating 
the -dev list. If someone is acting as a dev, then they should be 
treated as one, and to be honest, devs simply should not deal with the 
public, and continue to demonstrate why. ;)

> developers bitch about the users and I'm sure if you had them coming into the 
> office saying "how come I can't get feature $foo to work?" they'd be helped 
> begrudgingly...  Now do it a hundred times -- the newbie would be given a 
> pretty chilly response, don't you think?

the difference is that on the -users list, the list is not required to 
respond. So when the unnecessary response is provided with a large 
"asshole" quotient...well, see above.