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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Although one could argue that the previous president changed the
terms and condition by passing a law that the public wasn’t aware until too
late called the pat act.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Where the people got screwed in loosing theyr rights, with no
input whatsoever. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>
asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Drew Gibson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> April-20-09 3:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [asterisk-biz] FW: "illusory" terms of service<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>The "Terms of Service" are a part of the contract,
not separate from it. <br>
<br>
I agree that there is a need for flexibility and that changes are necessary
from time to time.<br>
<br>
As broadband adoption and bandwidth has increased, it would be reasonable to
increase the download cap from 1GB to 5GB per month.<br>
<br>
If a new form of spam evolved that was not covered by the ToS it might be
reasonable to add a prohibition to the "rules".<br>
<br>
However, using the Blockbuster example, to change the agreement such as to
include consent for an activity that would otherwise be illegal, I do not think
that is reasonable without obtaining a positive acknowledgment from the
customer.<br>
<br>
Customers SHOULD be able to sue every time a rule change (without prior notice
and consent) affects them in a negative and unreasonable manner just as a
business will sue a customer if THEY change the rules in a negative and
unreasonable manner (eg don't pay their bills).<br>
<br>
The key concepts here are "reasonable" and "prior notice and
consent"<br>
<br>
If your minor change has little or no negative impact on customers, go ahead.
That's reasonable.<br>
<br>
If your major change IS reasonable, why not give prior notice and obtain
consent?<br>
<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
<br>
Drew<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
SIP wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>But that's just it. It's not a contract. These days, a Terms of Service<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>agreement is really just marketing speak for 'Rules'<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>You agree to abide by the rules, and all is well. The rules can change<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>because the nature of the service or the legal system or the economy<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>changes rather rapidly. You have to understand that, what we can offer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>today because of the way laws are written or decided, we may not be able<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to offer tomorrow.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Rules change. That is the nature of technology.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Should customers be able to sue every time a rule changes? That's<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>essentially what's being decided here.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>If there's a formal contract, signed by both parties, then yes... it's<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>insane to say "This contract will change on our whim." But Terms of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Service are rarely formal contracts. They're more often a collection of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>rules by which the user needs to abide, and a bunch of legalese stating<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>how many different ways a company is not responsible for things over<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>which it has no control and/or bizarre expectations of the uneducated<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>consumer.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Which one was this?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>N.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Drew Gibson wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Isn't the whole point of a contract to prevent the terms of an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>agreement being changed?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Sample Contract:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>1. Consultant A agrees to configure 1 Asterisk server.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>2. Customer B agrees to pay $100.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>3. Consultant reserves right to change terms at any time.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Later....<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Consultant A: "Dear Customer, payment of the sum of $100 is past due,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>please pay immediately.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Customer B: "But you haven't configured my phone system!"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Consultant A: "There was a slight change to change to the terms of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>agreement. I just added "if he/she feels like it" to the end of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>first line. You agreed to pay but I don't feel like doing the work.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Please send $100 plus interest."<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>In this case I don't have much sympathy for Blockbuster.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Perhaps adding a "change terms with 30 days notice and customer has<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>right to cancel contract (with full refund of outstanding services) if<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>not acceptable" might make it stick.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I remember seeing something like that in my cell phone agreement.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>regards,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Drew<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Dean Collins wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>While not restricted to online websites I’m wondering if some of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>people on this list running USA based ITSP’s could be affected by<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>this court case.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Dean Collins<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Cognation Inc<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:dean@cognation.net">dean@cognation.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:dean@cognation.net"><mailto:dean@cognation.net></a>+1-212-203-4357 New York<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>+44-20-3129-6001 (London in-dial).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>*From:* Dean Collins<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*Sent:* Monday, April 20, 2009 10:45 AM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*Subject:* "illusory" terms of service<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>First posted at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/illusory-terms-of-service.html">http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/illusory-terms-of-service.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> * *<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> * *<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> *"Illusory" terms of service<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a
href="http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/illusory-terms-of-service.html"><http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/illusory-terms-of-service.html></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> *<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Wow I’m not sure how many people caught this or understood the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ramifications of it.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I’m trying to do some additional research to find out what this means<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>but this ruling at MediaPost.com<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=104357"><http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=104357></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>this morning caught my eye.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>//Lynn//// determined that Blockbuster's contract with users was<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>"illusory" because the agreement said that movie rental store could<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>change the terms and conditions at any time.///<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>//A Blockbuster spokesperson declined to comment on the case or state<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>whether the company will appeal. ///<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>//The decision is a blow to Blockbuster because individual consumers<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>would have had a difficult time bringing cases one-by-one against the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>company. But the decision paves the way for attorneys to argue that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>all consumers affected by Blockbuster's participation in Beacon<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>should be able to proceed as a class. //<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>//Internet law expert Venkat Balasubramani said Lynn's decision<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>invalidating Blockbuster's user agreement was potentially<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>far-reaching because many Web companies reserve the right to make<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>changes to their terms of service. "It seems broad and could have<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>impact on the terms of service used by a lot of different companies,"<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>he said.///<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>/<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I’m fairly sure this has to be appealed as couldn’t this throw a lot<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>of User Agreements out the window? (I know it would affect my<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>agreement at <a
href="http://www.LiveBaseballChat.com">www.LiveBaseballChat.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://www.livebaseballchat.com/"><http://www.livebaseballchat.com/></a> out the window).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Any thoughts about how this affects your business? Post below.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Dean Collins<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Cognation Inc<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:dean@cognation.net">dean@cognation.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:dean@cognation.net"><mailto:dean@cognation.net></a>+1-212-203-4357 New York<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>+44-20-3129-6001 (London in-dial).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by <a
href="http://www.api-digital.com">http://www.api-digital.com</a>--<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>asterisk-biz mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a
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<pre>------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by <a
href="http://www.api-digital.com">http://www.api-digital.com</a>--<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>asterisk-biz mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a
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