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You've repeatedly failed to grasp that the central issue has not been
the assertion that the original poster is bigoted, but rather, that he
cavalierly disregards social conventions in a way that perpetuates
bigotry, and in a way that is juvenile and inappropriate for this type
of forum. Various posters have attempted to isolate this point
explicitly and obliquely, but it keeps getting by you.<br>
<br>
Now that he has repeated the behavior in a way that just happens to be
uncomfortable to you, you feel the need to distance yourself. It's
ironic because his latest post comes in a context that clearly
identifies it as satire, albeit very poor quality. Not so for the
original post: an off-handed gratuitous smear that was just simply in
poor taste.<br>
<br>
Nick Seraphin wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:Pine.BSF.4.10.10711141842190.69830-100000@homer.eaglequest.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Well now that Alex is imploding himself on the list, whether he really is
a bigot or not, he sure wants us all to think he is. So I'm not defending
Alex anymore. However, I stand by my original position that what he said,
if it had been said by anyone else, should STILL not be considered a
bigoted statement, and that taken out of the context of Alex's other
statements, this by itself was not worth Matthew or anyone else blowing a
gasket over.
Alex's implosion hurts my argument by association because he was the
original subject, but again, said by anyone else who doesn't make other
contextual statements to support it, the "gay" thing was not worth getting
upset over, nor is it, by itself, bigoted.
-- Nick
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Brent Wagner wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">For what it's worth: I won't do business with Alex, because his
comment was juvenile. And, yes, there has been a pattern of
mistreatment of homosexuals for a long, long time. And yes, it seems
about as bad ( to me, at least ) as mistreating someone due to race.
But, we're each entitled to our own opinions and actions in response.
So, like I said, I won't deal with Alex. Not because I believe that
he's a homophobe, or a racist, but because I don't believe that a
comment like the one made by him is remotely mature or professional.
By the way, I'm about as conservative as they come. Your assertion
that condemning pejoratives is somehow liberal is silly.
On Nov 14, 2007, at 12:47 PM, Nick Seraphin wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Matthew Rubenstein wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> People call something that isn't a sexual human "gay" to insult it,
because lots of people have treated gay people as really bad
things. We
don't say a bargainer tried to "jew us down" any more, either, even
though "Jew" isn't a bad word when referring to Jewish people (except
when people mean it that way).
When you use the term for a group of people as an insult to
something,
you are insulting those people. If people called some things
"christian"
as an insult, for example, the way people have called things "gay"
as an
insult for a long time, then "that thing is christian beyond words"
would insult not just the thing, but christians, too.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">You're going way off the deep end here, buddy. First, *I* never
used the
word. I'm simply saying that calling Alex a bigot for using it in
the way
he did is totally going overboard. I'm simply defending Alex on this
because I don't think it was the end of civilization like you seem
to be
indicating now.
You sound absolutely ridiculous. Go back and read what you just
wrote.
You're implying that calling an inanimate object "gay" is as bad as
making
Black people sit on the back of the bus in the 1950's. You're being
totally irrational.
Because I defended Alex's benign comment, you now called me a bigot
and a
racist (where did racism come into this? Is being gay now it's own
race?)
and "people like [me]" are the reason there's oppression in the
world and
why life is so horrible in this country. You're obviously liberal
politically from your statements below... aren't liberals supposed to
DEFEND free speech and the first amendment? Or maybe you only
defend YOUR
right to free speech? Anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot or a
racist. Classic lines from the MoveOn.org playbook for arguments.
I suppose anytime you don't agree with someone, you just "gang up
on them" and beat them into submission until they succumb to your
point
of view? Doesn't that make YOU the oppressive one here?
If calling something "gay" is such a bigoted slur, then why don't I
see
any outrage from the community at all the thousands of times I've
seen it
used on TV or in movies in the past 10 years alone?
REAL slurs, like the N-word, don't get used on broadcast television
anymore and haven't for years. Yet I've often heard actors on
broadcast
television saying something is "gay" or "so gay".
If it's such a horrible thing to say, where's the outrage over it's
common
use in everyday life? Don't tell me this mailing list is the first
time
you've ever seen someone use that word that way in recent history.
Or what about all the times in TV or movies where there's a
situation in
which someone questions whether another man is gay or not, and they
flinch, give a horrified facial expresion, and say "God No!"...
that's not
more insulting to gay people than Alex calling an inanimate object
"gay"
on a mailing list with a tiny fraction of the viewers of any TV
network?
You think what Alex did was worse? Yet the other thing is clearly
acceptable in today's society.
I guess Hollywood (which is full of gay people too) didn't get your
memo.
Any other common words or phrases we have to stop using on here so
as to
not offend you or oppress you?
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> This is a basic point of elementary manners. Ask yourself if you
would
feel safe in a gay bar full of gay bikers, asked if you like the new
version of Windows, and you replied that you didn't, LOUDLY, saying
"THAT IS SO GAY". Would you feel safe? Would your rationalizations
protect you?
You're one of those people who thinks you've carved out a whole
zone of
bad behavior because you call rules against it "politically"
correct, as
if the behavior is actually correct, but there's some arbitrary rule
against it. "Politically correct" refers to all kinds of correct
behavior that had to be forced on bigots by oppressed groups, because
bigots, usually in the majority, could be stopped only by a
"political"
process, like long appeals like this one to people's sense of decency
buried under their convenient traditional bigotry.
People like you have long insisted from your conveniently protected
roles in society that all kinds of ethnic slurs are OK. But their
common
use is a reminder to people they insult that the insults are
accepted,
will not be opposed, that the insulter has power to offend that the
insulted does not have power to stop. The reality is referred to
by the
insult. To remind everyone that the target is an acceptable victim,
which perpetuates the abuse. Including physical and political
abuse. Gay
people, even in America, are often second class citizens, with all
kinds
of rights and privileges denied them. And your calling something
"gay"
as an arbitrary insult to it is helping keep it that way. If you
don't
understand that, it's because you understand nothing about
politics or
how large groups of people operate. And now you're defending your
ignorance, just because it's convenient to you.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Geez, Just call me Hitler so I can invoke Godwin's Law already.
You're
almost there with the above statements anyway. :-)
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> I didn't say that making that slur was the sole action keeping
everyone
down. But it is part of it. And people failing to confront those
little,
everyday abuses is the essential part of it. Every time a White
person
in Alabama let a bus driver direct a Black person to the back of the
bus, or any other of the little acceptable codes of racism was
indulged
rather than confronted, the racism was kept propped up by the person
going along as much as by the person enforcing it.
I also didn't say anything about "Christmas". But your bringing
it up
refers to you acting like there's some kind of "war on Christmas",
the
idiotic culture war that lets privileged people like you act like
victims, when you're not. A sad perversion of what Christmas is
supposed
to stand for: the birth of someone who brought compassion for
everyone,
no matter their station, regardless of how socially acceptable it
was to
treat some people like animals or objects.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Well based on that statement, I now know you're a far-left liberal
nut and
there's no way I can win this argument with you, so I'm not even
going to
try. Go ahead and claim victory... tell me "you're giving up
because you
know you're wrong" or whatever canned phrase liberals are using
this week.
You've proven you're irrational, and I don't have time to waste
arguing
with an irrational person.
If someone else, who isn't irrational, wants to discuss this with me
privately, I'll be happy to continue off-list.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> Bigotry is *real*. It ruins lives. Just because you're privileged
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Yes... calling an inanimate object "gay" is ruining lives. The body
count must be in the thousands. Got to be George Bush's fault!
Just like
Katrina!
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> BTW, ending your excuses with an insult and a smiley doesn't make it
OK. And your saying that your bigotry is no big deal, just because
*you*
are so casual about it, doesn't mean it really is like that.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">It wasn't an insult. Again, you see something where it doesn't exist.
My God, I still cannot believe that you went this ape over Alex's
comment.
I'm literally shaking my head in disbelief as I type this.
-- Nick
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</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
---------------------
"If you can't do something smart, do something right."
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
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