[Asterisk-Dev] voicemail message number limits

[dking at pimpsoft.com]

On 25 Jul 2004 at 12:57, Craig Southeren wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:08:30 -0700
> dking at pimpsoft.com wrote:
> 
> > If that is the case then since you signed away any rights you have to your work/source when you joined the effort, then they have the full ability to legally take asterisk out of gpl at will.
> 
> This statement is a mixture of truth and untruth. 
> 
> No-one can "sign away any rights you have" because the GPL guarantees
> you have rights even outside of copyright. 

EXACTLY! 

> However, it is true that Digium could legally take Asterisk out of GPL
> at will. I've included an explanation below as to why that is a
> side-effect of the actual intent, and why it is not such a big deal
> in any case.

Yes as I have said from the start that is true, and since they control the cvs and source distribution if they ever did so access to the source would be cut off. We have no proof they will never do this and that Digum will never make a mad grab at its failing business in the future should it ever die by trying to capitalizes on the source even more by restricting access to it and its other source code branches. After all that is what SCO is trying to do now, steal and say they own something they do not.

I think more independent cvs and source mirrors would help this, as it would make them doing this impossible. 

> > The thing is, that would also be illegal, so by reference what your saying is either not true/valid or proves my point above.
> 
> This statements is simply wrong. It's not not illegal, immoral, or even
> bad. :)
> 
> To understand why, you need to distinguish between copyright and license.
> As someone who has been involved in Open Source telephony for over 6
> years, and has given numerous public talks on the topic, I think I can
> speak with some degree of knowledge on this issue. Apologies in advance
> for the length of this post, but it's a complicated issue!
> 
> The GPL is a license. A license controls who may use the code and the
> conditions under which that usage may occur. It says nothing about
> copyright, because that is a totally different topic. If you don't
> believe me, read the GPL yourself and the associated FAQ. The closest
> the GPL comes to referencing copyright is here: 
> 
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#RequiredToClaimCopyright
Im aware of the GPL. I have read it and listened to it being read 
many times.

> Asterisk is distributed under what is essentially a standard GPL with
> certain extensions to allow linking with non-GPL software such as
> proprietary codeces
That is illegal under the GPL. Either software is GPL or it is not. 
When you say something is GPL you explicitly say the software is also 
bound by the limitations of the GPL and that states the software may 
NOT be used or included with non gpl software if the license violates 
the GPL. So what your saying is the asterisk project is illegal in 
its current implementation.
> As pointed out by previous posters, this is almost
> mandatory for any GPL telephony software (see GnomeMeeting and GnuGK as
> other examples) due to the proliferation of proprietary standard within
> the industry. Without that, Asterisk would be unable to interoperate in
> any useful way with existing equipment.

Not true. The gpl is being violated due to asterisks use f these same 
libs and such; If they had the correct and compatible licenses (sip 
is a open standard and gpl versions of the lib must exist) then it 
would not be a violation of it to use them as part of the project. 
But right now from what you just stated above, you proved that 
asterisk with its use of other proprietary software violates the law. 
That was not what I was trying to do at all but I cant run from 
facts.
 
> Because Asterisk is covered by the GPL, everyone has the same rights as
> far as *usage* of the Asterisk code in concerned. The software can be
> used by anyone, forked by anyone, and distributed by anyone under the
> terms of the GPL. In this sense, you may consider the code at Digium to
> be just one fork of the Asterisk code that Mark and the folks at Digium
> have decided to maintain. 
But the other branches they maintain are public domain and belong to 
the company, or at least that seems to be the goal based on the 
disclaimers they want everyone to sign, even though the act of doing 
so is invalid under the terms of the GPL itself as stated by many 
others.

>Anyone can create their own code fork at any
> time, but it says a lot for the abilities of Digium that no-one has
> chosen to do so to date.

To do so at this stage of development would be a dead end; The people 
I have talked to _on this list_ in private about that state they are 
simply waiting for it to mature more, then digum will be cut out of 
the loop, or so I'm told.
 
> Now, lets talk about copyrught.
> 
> Mark has chosen to require that the copyright for all contributions to his
> version of Asterisk must be assigned to Digium. Saying that this violates
> the GPL, or that it is "illegal" is a stupid statement - because the GPL
> places no restrictions on copyright. That's like saying that the GPL is
> violated by a project that requires all contributions to be written in
> English, or by a project requires all contrbutions to be submitted by
> email. There is no GPL violation because the GPL does not cover these
> topics.

The GPL states explicitly that that you must give others _ALL RIGHTS_ you have. Not doing so violates the GPL. Your argument is based on the fallacy of diversion and your straying from the topic at hand. It is illegal to ask for the copyright of the  work submitted by others as they own the copyright for there own work under the law, and they under the GPL do not have the right to transfer that copyright. The GPL states you must give the people with the source the same rights as you have, no more no less. If 
they have nothing they can not give it to you, but if your company supports the software and gives out the source, since they the company own the copyright on say ‘Marks’ work then your also giving away that right. Your forgetting that under the law companies have the same rights and responsibilities as people so legally the company Digum has the same legal obligation as anyone with the source or the ability to distribute it. Digum is doing so by many means, CVS, ftp, mirrors.. so via the GPL they are 
distributing the source code and are bound by the GPL just as much as you or I would be.

> Mark has publically stated that the reason for requiring all
> contributors to his version of Asterisk to assign copyright to Digium is
> to allow the license to be changed by Digium. Whether you believe him or
> not, this is a very good reason.

But doing so violates the GPL and good taste. Plus the community as a 
whole does not have any proof of his good intentions. I say put it in 
writing and have digum sign off any copyright to the project as 
public domain the same way Novel and the rest did for UNIX so NO one 
has copyright over it, then no one can limit the distribution or use 
of it with external libraries. But Digum has not chosen to do that 
since if they do not they can use that as leverage should they go 
under, just like SCO.

Consider that when Netscape changed the
> license for Mozilla from MPL to GPL, they were forced to contact every
> single person and company that had ever contribnuted to the code and get
> written permission from them to change the license. This was a massive
> effort and is something that would not be feasible for a company the
> size of Digium.

That was only possible because they did so; Legally that is still 
required for asterisk as the disclaimers signed are invalid under the 
law; and that was switching TO the gpl not FROM gpl.
 
> The result of this is that Digium can alter the license for their
> version of Asterisk to allow the incorporation of new codecs or
> libraries without having to contact hundreds of people every time it
> needs to happen. I can't see how anyone could think this is a bad thing.

The problem with altering the license is that the gpl is a solid and 
sane object in the sense that you cant modify it at will. You could 
say something is under GPL-like license, but to do that you would 
have to write up something similar. For something to be gpl it not 
only must STAY GPL and the terms may not be changed, that is what the 
gpl is about.
> As a side effect, it is true that this copyright assignment also means
> that Digium could decide to fork the Asterisk project and take it
> completely closed source, or license it to Microsoft, or do anyone of a
> hundred other unlikely things. But even if they did, the currently
> existing versions of the Asterisk code would continue to be available
> under the existing GPL license. Anyone could pick up the current code,
> start a new SourceForge project and announce Asterisk II. In fact, they
> could do that right now if they really want to.
If Digium cut off access to the source no one could get copies of the 
source to do that. That is why we need better and more up to date 
mirrors of not only releases by but the CVS, to stop them from being 
able to do that and provide the public pressure needed for them to 
not want to do so.

I don't trust Mark, or Digum as I see them as one and the same. They have a goal to make money and over the years that has always gone against both personal rights and legal rights of the people who get in the way of that goal; Just look at the larger companies, they all got that way by being dishonest and taking advantage of people and as a company you want to grow big. I see the open source nature of Asterisk as a cost cutting measure by a company that hopes to get big by tapping the boundless resources of the 
open source community to create software they will then turn around and sell in violation of the terms they are bound by. So I have said all this to keep them in check; Yes I may sound like a idiot or a ignorant fool but in the end people think about what is really going on and possible motivations by a company and that is my goal. I understand many of you may not wish to look or think about some of these things since due to your close connection and hard work on the project it may be painful, but I am really a 
friend.

> Lastly, even had Mark not had the foresight to make copyright
> assignmment a prerequisite for contribution to the Digium fork of
> Asterisk, then he could could still "do a Netscape" and relicense all of
> the Asterisk code that he wrote and hence has copyright for.
No he could not. The 'to gpl' thing that mozilla and Netscape did was 
one way, you _can not_ go _from_ gpl, only _to it_ due to the gpls 
own limitations without violating the law. Its a one way street not a 
two lane highway.

>en that
> this would probably be most of the code in Asterisk, it's hard for
> someone with an understanding of the facts to read anything into the
> copyright assignment other than it is a good idea to reduce the ongoing
> effort involved in integrating with proprietary software that would
> otherwise be impossible with an unmodified GPL.

hat is just it, you can not modify the gpl without breaking it.

> I hope this clarifies a difficult and complicated topic.
> 
>    Craig
You proved yourself wrong and clarified a bit of the rest for 
everyone, thank you.

PS. The reason I did not post this sooner was my fridge blew up and I 
was forced to evacuate (it was very old) so I am sorry I did not get 
to this sooner.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Craig Southeren      craigs at postincrement.com / craigs at voxgratia.org
> 
>  Phone:  +61 243654666      ICQ: #86852844
>  Fax:    +61 243673140      MSN: craig_southeren at hotmail.com
>  Mobile: +61 417231046   Jabber: craigs at jabber.voxgratia.org
> 
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>  Raving Of A Strange Mind - the VoIP blog  http://www.southeren.com/blog
> 
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