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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Gee, this has proven to be the most entertaining
list I belong to. For the last day it's been like a bad accident that I
can't stop staring at.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Let me share a little story, it was 1957, the
pepperoni were swimming upstream, we were parked in front of the police station
downtown as my father ran inside for his pay check. Sitting on the back
seat I shouted 'Look Mom it's a <the N word>'. A word I had learned
at home. The gentleman on the sidewalk stopped and stared into the window
of the '55 Plymouth at me pointing at him with my three year old, two inch long,
lilly white forefinger. The man gave me an 'in your face look' for a moment
then a little curl at the corner of his lip that could have been a faint smile
or a smirk, he then walked on down the sidewalk. Needless to say, at the
age of three I conceptualized that all that seems appropiate may not be. I
remember the gentleman's face, expression, the hat he was wearing like a
photograph today, although the moment happened fifty years ago.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, with that said and as a homosexual, I cringe a
bit when someone refers to a product or action as being <the offending G
word> but i'm not immobilized by it... to understand others I have to look
inside my self...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-rick</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">That
summary, like the rest of your comments in this thread, is<BR>precisely
correct and well packaged in its brevity.<BR><BR><BR>On Wed, 2007-11-14 at
19:47 -0500, Bill Michaelson wrote:<BR>> You've repeatedly failed to grasp
that the central issue has not been<BR>> the assertion that the original
poster is bigoted, but rather, that he<BR>> cavalierly disregards social
conventions in a way that perpetuates<BR>> bigotry, and in a way that is
juvenile and inappropriate for this type<BR>> of forum. Various
posters have attempted to isolate this point<BR>> explicitly and obliquely,
but it keeps getting by you.<BR>> <BR>> Now that he has repeated the
behavior in a way that just happens to be<BR>> uncomfortable to you, you
feel the need to distance yourself. It's<BR>> ironic because his
latest post comes in a context that clearly<BR>> identifies it as satire,
albeit very poor quality. Not so for the<BR>> original post: an
off-handed gratuitous smear that was just simply in<BR>> poor
taste.<BR>> <BR>> Nick Seraphin wrote: <BR>> > Well now that Alex
is imploding himself on the list, whether he really is<BR>> > a bigot or
not, he sure wants us all to think he is. So I'm not defending<BR>>
> Alex anymore. However, I stand by my original position that what he
said,<BR>> > if it had been said by anyone else, should STILL not be
considered a<BR>> > bigoted statement, and that taken out of the context
of Alex's other<BR>> > statements, this by itself was not worth Matthew
or anyone else blowing a<BR>> > gasket over.<BR>> > <BR>> >
Alex's implosion hurts my argument by association because he was the<BR>>
> original subject, but again, said by anyone else who doesn't make
other<BR>> > contextual statements to support it, the "gay" thing was
not worth getting<BR>> > upset over, nor is it, by itself,
bigoted.<BR>> > <BR>> > -- Nick<BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Brent Wagner wrote:<BR>> > <BR>>
> <BR>> > > For what it's worth: I won't do business
with Alex, because his <BR>> > > comment was juvenile. And,
yes, there has been a pattern of <BR>> > > mistreatment of
homosexuals for a long, long time. And yes, it seems <BR>> > >
about as bad ( to me, at least ) as mistreating someone due to race.
<BR>> > > But, we're each entitled to our own opinions and actions in
response. <BR>> > > So, like I said, I won't deal with Alex.
Not because I believe that <BR>> > > he's a homophobe, or a
racist, but because I don't believe that a <BR>> > > comment
like the one made by him is remotely mature or professional. <BR>>
> > By the way, I'm about as conservative as they come. Your
assertion <BR>> > > that condemning pejoratives is somehow
liberal is silly.<BR>> > > <BR>> > > On Nov 14, 2007, at
12:47 PM, Nick Seraphin wrote:<BR>> > > <BR>> >
> <BR>> > > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007,
Matthew Rubenstein wrote:<BR>> > > > <BR>> > >
> <BR>> > > > > People
call something that isn't a sexual human "gay" to insult it,<BR>> > >
> > because lots of people have treated gay people as really bad
<BR>> > > > > things. We<BR>> > > > > don't say
a bargainer tried to "jew us down" any more, either, even<BR>> > >
> > though "Jew" isn't a bad word when referring to Jewish people
(except<BR>> > > > > when people mean it that way).<BR>>
> > > > <BR>> > > > > When you use the term for a
group of people as an insult to <BR>> > > > >
something,<BR>> > > > > you are insulting those people. If
people called some things <BR>> > > > >
"christian"<BR>> > > > > as an insult, for example, the way
people have called things "gay" <BR>> > > > > as
an<BR>> > > > > insult for a long time, then "that thing is
christian beyond words"<BR>> > > > > would insult not just the
thing, but christians, too.<BR>> > > >
> <BR>> > > >
You're going way off the deep end here, buddy. First, *I* never
<BR>> > > > used the<BR>> > > > word. I'm simply
saying that calling Alex a bigot for using it in <BR>> > > >
the way<BR>> > > > he did is totally going overboard. I'm
simply defending Alex on this<BR>> > > > because I don't think it
was the end of civilization like you seem <BR>> > > > to
be<BR>> > > > indicating now.<BR>> > > > <BR>> >
> > You sound absolutely ridiculous. Go back and read what you
just <BR>> > > > wrote.<BR>> > > > You're
implying that calling an inanimate object "gay" is as bad as <BR>>
> > > making<BR>> > > > Black people sit on the back of
the bus in the 1950's. You're being<BR>> > > > totally
irrational.<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > Because I defended
Alex's benign comment, you now called me a bigot <BR>> > > >
and a<BR>> > > > racist (where did racism come into this? Is
being gay now it's own <BR>> > > > race?)<BR>> > >
> and "people like [me]" are the reason there's oppression in the
<BR>> > > > world and<BR>> > > > why life is so
horrible in this country. You're obviously liberal<BR>> > >
> politically from your statements below... aren't liberals supposed
to<BR>> > > > DEFEND free speech and the first amendment? Or
maybe you only <BR>> > > > defend YOUR<BR>> > >
> right to free speech? Anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot or
a<BR>> > > > racist. Classic lines from the MoveOn.org
playbook for arguments.<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > I
suppose anytime you don't agree with someone, you just "gang up<BR>> >
> > on them" and beat them into submission until they succumb to
your <BR>> > > > point<BR>> > > > of view?
Doesn't that make YOU the oppressive one here?<BR>> > > > <BR>>
> > > If calling something "gay" is such a bigoted slur, then why
don't I <BR>> > > > see<BR>> > > > any outrage
from the community at all the thousands of times I've <BR>> > >
> seen it<BR>> > > > used on TV or in movies in the past 10
years alone?<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > REAL slurs, like
the N-word, don't get used on broadcast television<BR>> > > >
anymore and haven't for years. Yet I've often heard actors on
<BR>> > > > broadcast<BR>> > > > television saying
something is "gay" or "so gay".<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > >
If it's such a horrible thing to say, where's the outrage over it's
<BR>> > > > common<BR>> > > > use in everyday
life? Don't tell me this mailing list is the first <BR>> >
> > time<BR>> > > > you've ever seen someone use that word
that way in recent history.<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > Or
what about all the times in TV or movies where there's a <BR>> >
> > situation in<BR>> > > > which someone questions whether
another man is gay or not, and they<BR>> > > > flinch, give a
horrified facial expresion, and say "God No!"... <BR>> > > >
that's not<BR>> > > > more insulting to gay people than Alex
calling an inanimate object <BR>> > > > "gay"<BR>> >
> > on a mailing list with a tiny fraction of the viewers of any
TV <BR>> > > > network?<BR>> > > > You think
what Alex did was worse? Yet the other thing is clearly<BR>> >
> > acceptable in today's society.<BR>> > > > <BR>> >
> > I guess Hollywood (which is full of gay people too) didn't get
your <BR>> > > > memo.<BR>> > > > <BR>> >
> > Any other common words or phrases we have to stop using on here
so <BR>> > > > as to<BR>> > > > not offend you
or oppress you?<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > <BR>> >
> > <BR>> > > > >
This is a basic point of elementary manners. Ask yourself if you
<BR>> > > > > would<BR>> > > > > feel safe in a
gay bar full of gay bikers, asked if you like the new<BR>> > > >
> version of Windows, and you replied that you didn't, LOUDLY,
saying<BR>> > > > > "THAT IS SO GAY". Would you feel safe?
Would your rationalizations<BR>> > > > > protect you?<BR>>
> > > > <BR>> > > > > You're one of those people
who thinks you've carved out a whole <BR>> > > > > zone
of<BR>> > > > > bad behavior because you call rules against it
"politically" <BR>> > > > > correct, as<BR>> > >
> > if the behavior is actually correct, but there's some arbitrary
rule<BR>> > > > > against it. "Politically correct" refers to
all kinds of correct<BR>> > > > > behavior that had to be
forced on bigots by oppressed groups, because<BR>> > > > >
bigots, usually in the majority, could be stopped only by a <BR>>
> > > > "political"<BR>> > > > > process, like long
appeals like this one to people's sense of decency<BR>> > > > >
buried under their convenient traditional bigotry.<BR>> > > > >
<BR>> > > > > People like you have long insisted from your
conveniently protected<BR>> > > > > roles in society that all
kinds of ethnic slurs are OK. But their <BR>> > > > >
common<BR>> > > > > use is a reminder to people they insult
that the insults are <BR>> > > > > accepted,<BR>> >
> > > will not be opposed, that the insulter has power to offend that
the<BR>> > > > > insulted does not have power to stop. The
reality is referred to <BR>> > > > > by the<BR>> >
> > > insult. To remind everyone that the target is an acceptable
victim,<BR>> > > > > which perpetuates the abuse. Including
physical and political <BR>> > > > > abuse. Gay<BR>>
> > > > people, even in America, are often second class citizens,
with all <BR>> > > > > kinds<BR>> > > > >
of rights and privileges denied them. And your calling something
<BR>> > > > > "gay"<BR>> > > > > as an arbitrary
insult to it is helping keep it that way. If you <BR>> > > >
> don't<BR>> > > > > understand that, it's because you
understand nothing about <BR>> > > > > politics
or<BR>> > > > > how large groups of people operate. And now
you're defending your<BR>> > > > > ignorance, just because it's
convenient to you.<BR>> > > >
> <BR>> > > >
Geez, Just call me Hitler so I can invoke Godwin's Law already.
<BR>> > > > You're<BR>> > > > almost there with the
above statements anyway. :-)<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > >
<BR>> > > > <BR>> > >
> > I didn't say that making that slur was the sole action keeping
<BR>> > > > > everyone<BR>> > > > > down. But it
is part of it. And people failing to confront those <BR>> > >
> > little,<BR>> > > > > everyday abuses is the essential
part of it. Every time a White <BR>> > > > >
person<BR>> > > > > in Alabama let a bus driver direct a Black
person to the back of the<BR>> > > > > bus, or any other of the
little acceptable codes of racism was <BR>> > > > >
indulged<BR>> > > > > rather than confronted, the racism was
kept propped up by the person<BR>> > > > > going along as much
as by the person enforcing it.<BR>> > > > > <BR>> > >
> > I also didn't say anything about "Christmas". But your
bringing <BR>> > > > > it up<BR>> > > > >
refers to you acting like there's some kind of "war on Christmas",
<BR>> > > > > the<BR>> > > > > idiotic culture
war that lets privileged people like you act like<BR>> > > > >
victims, when you're not. A sad perversion of what Christmas is <BR>>
> > > > supposed<BR>> > > > > to stand for: the
birth of someone who brought compassion for <BR>> > > > >
everyone,<BR>> > > > > no matter their station, regardless of
how socially acceptable it <BR>> > > > > was to<BR>>
> > > > treat some people like animals or objects.<BR>> >
> > > <BR>> >
> > Well based on that statement, I now know you're a far-left
liberal <BR>> > > > nut and<BR>> > > > there's
no way I can win this argument with you, so I'm not even <BR>> >
> > going to<BR>> > > > try. Go ahead and claim
victory... tell me "you're giving up <BR>> > > > because
you<BR>> > > > know you're wrong" or whatever canned phrase
liberals are using <BR>> > > > this week.<BR>> > >
> <BR>> > > > You've proven you're irrational, and I don't have
time to waste <BR>> > > > arguing<BR>> > > >
with an irrational person.<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > If
someone else, who isn't irrational, wants to discuss this with me<BR>> >
> > privately, I'll be happy to continue off-list.<BR>> > >
> <BR>> > > > <BR>> > >
> <BR>> > > > > Bigotry
is *real*. It ruins lives. Just because you're privileged<BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> Yes... calling an inanimate object "gay" is ruining lives.
The body<BR>> > > > count must be in the thousands. Got to
be George Bush's fault! <BR>> > > > Just like<BR>>
> > > Katrina!<BR>> > > > <BR>> > >
> <BR>> > > > > BTW,
ending your excuses with an insult and a smiley doesn't make it<BR>> >
> > > OK. And your saying that your bigotry is no big deal, just
because <BR>> > > > > *you*<BR>> > > > >
are so casual about it, doesn't mean it really is like that.<BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> It wasn't an insult. Again, you see something where it doesn't
exist.<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > My God, I still cannot
believe that you went this ape over Alex's <BR>> > > >
comment.<BR>> > > > I'm literally shaking my head in disbelief as
I type this.<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > -- Nick<BR>>
> > > <BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > <BR>> >
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