[asterisk-biz] General development funding: discussion andsurvey
Dean Collins
Dean at cognation.net
Fri Oct 31 10:05:16 CDT 2008
John,
Maybe a little more effort could be spent on getting the Asterisk 3rd
party license server up and running and this would encourage more funded
development.
I heard via a Voiceroute video that you announced it at Astricon which
was good news as you stopped returning my calls/emails since the
community first raised the idea over 6 months ago.
I was hoping that there might be some post event announcements after
Astricon but unless I missed it this appears to have died again.
....just a thought.
Regards,
Dean Collins
Cognation Inc
dean at cognation.net
+1-212-203-4357 New York
+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
+44-20-3129-6001 (London in-dial).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
> bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of John Todd
> Sent: Friday, 31 October 2008 10:15 AM
> To: Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion
> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] General development funding: discussion
andsurvey
>
> Craig -
> No, that is not my inference at all, and I apologize if that is the
> impression you or others received in reading my message. The Asterisk
> Open Source project is as active as it has ever been, and is anything
> but a failure at this point. My question is: could the project be 20%
> more effective if there were a funding method to connect fee-based
> developers with people who had requirements? 30% more effective?
> 100%? Other open-source platforms have already done this type of
> funding arrangement - would it work for Asterisk?
>
> I pose this question set at the request of companies and
> individuals who have spoken with me privately (or publicly) about this
> type of arrangement, and it is on their behalf that I am putting
> together this interest estimate. Any mechanism that could improve the
> Asterisk Open Source project is interesting to me, regardless of how
> well we believe the current model works. If there's interest -
> great! Let's see if it's serious. If not, OK, then things seem to be
> working as they are now.
>
> I'd have you go back and read this more closely - this is not a
> request to have Digium collect money - this is an open-source
> suggestion for something unrelated to Digium.
>
> JT
>
>
>
> On Oct 31, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Craig Lawrence wrote:
>
> > John
> >
> > You are inferring that in this instance (with respect to Asterisk)
the
> > Open Source Model isn't working.
> >
> > As a consequence, you are researching alternative means of funding
the
> > existing Digium Open Source model.
> >
> > I would respectfully suggest that you look further into the reasons
> > for
> > the failure of Digium's implementation of the Open Source Model
before
> > you canvas the community with requests for funding.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> > Craig Lawrence
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com
> > [mailto:asterisk-biz-bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of John
Todd
> > Sent: Friday, 31 October 2008 6:12 AM
> > To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion;
> > asterisk-biz at lists.digium.com
> > Subject: [asterisk-biz] General development funding: discussion and
> > survey
> >
> > [sending to -users and -biz in a slightly different format to
broaden
> > participation]
> >
> > Summary:
> > Would you help fund different Open-Source Asterisk enhancements,
> > bugfixes, or documentation if there was a way to collectively
> > contribute money towards the effort without a profit margin
> > incorporated into the price? If so, jump to the bottom of this
> > message and fill out the form on the URL provided. There is no
> > obligation to anything by filling out the form - think of this as a
> > "market survey".
> >
> >
> > The Long Version:
> >
> > Everyone on this list is presumably an Asterisk user, advocate, or
is
> > in some way benefitting from the project. Your ideas and survey
> > participation would be welcome on the topic below.
> >
> > Many coders love coding for Asterisk but often can't find the time
to
> > do it for free when faced with things like buying food, paying
> > mortgages, and keeping current with their insurance - this is
totally
> > understandable. Many coders have and continue to contribute things
to
> > Asterisk at no cost, but these patches are typically their own
> > "itches", where they have solved a particular problem of their own.
> > Rarely do people pick up problems that are not related to anything
> > they're doing, or pick up unrelated problems that are so large that
it
> > would involve 100% of their time for any significant period. Some
> > people ("Bless your heart!" as they say here in Huntsville) work on
> > bugs and enhancements that don't directly benefit them at all -
these
> > are the most valuable contributors we have - you know who you are.
> > Most of the time, though, there is a directly relevant reason why
> > people work on code and often that means more obscure bugs or
feature
> > implementations languish, though still worthwhile if someone were to
> > complete them.
> >
> > On the other side of the scale there are many people or companies
who
> > perhaps would like to contribute to paying for various features in
> > Asterisk that would be described as "large enhancements" or even
minor
> > bugs and annoyances, but do not have sufficient funds to pay for an
> > entire project themselves. There are perhaps also many people who
> > would like to help out Asterisk in a way that allows them to
> > contribute funding towards the project, but they're uncomfortable
> > sending money to a corporation and hoping that it gets eventually
> > applied to OSS Asterisk (and I'm not only talking about Digium in
this
> > case.) There are coders available for a fee (perhaps much less
than
> > market rate, perhaps not - we'll just say "non-zero cost") who could
> > do this work and would love to do it if they could justify the time
> > spent. Open-Source Software doesn't always imply that the code is
> > "unpaid work", and Digium's contributions towards Asterisk are a
case
> > for the benefits of having an income stream and payment system
> > (salaries) that supplements OSS development.
> >
> > So there is a disconnect between two groups of willing consumers and
> > willing producers - how do we bridge it? The answer some have come
up
> > with is "Let's create an Asterisk fund and collect money and
disperse
> > money to pay for work by community members!" This is a great
concept,
> > but the devil is in the details, and I've found that when money is
> > involved, the detail devil is much larger and angrier than usual.
> >
> >
> > The problems with this idea have continually been:
> >
> > - Escrow of capital. It is not feasible to trust that donors will
> > be good on their contribution post-release. This may be because it
> > takes a while for the code and economic situations change, it may be
> > that internal paperwork processes take forever to get done (Hi, Raj,
> > sorry about that delay from Tello!), or it may just be that a large
> > portion of funders are flaky. I'm willing to be convinced this
isn't
> > the case, but personally I certainly wouldn't code a large amount of
> > hours based on the say-so of people I'd never worked with before.
> > Perhaps some sort of metric could be created for more reliable
payers,
> > like a rating system of integrity?
> >
> > - Agreement of project goals. Who defines the project? Who gets
what
> > they want? Based on money? Based on some arbitration? What and
who
> > defines "success"?
> >
> > - Corporate structure for payments. If there is an agent in between
> > the coders and the funders, then what kind of agent is that? For-
> > profit? Not-for-profit? Who pays for the creation of this entity?
> > It's possibly the case that Digium Inc. is not the best place for
this
> > funding repository, though possibly that would make life a lot
easier
> > from an organizational standpoint. (not sure about taxes, though.)
> >
> > - How to pay? Obviously, the more the merrier, but credit cards,
bank
> > accounts, PayPal, and other payment instruments are complex and
> > expensive. Payment to consultants is another problem - taxation may
> > be a problem again.
> >
> > - Serious interest. This has been a topic of conversation for the
> > last 6 years that I'm aware of, and none of the concepts or problems
> > I'm bringing up here are new. However, it is discussed but no
action
> > is taken. Perhaps now is the time to serious look at this concept
> > since Asterisk is reaching such a large audience. Traditionally,
the
> > number of people or organizations that would provide "seed" funding
> > for something like this is low; possibly only a single organization
> > (Digium) would have the focused interest and capital to create such
a
> > financial/organizational entity as a non-profit or other unrelated
> > instrument. But who would use it, really? At what level of actual
> > contribution? To convince Digium (and/or hopefully other founding
> > members of some as-yet undefined organization) to put their money
and
> > effort towards such a fund/foundation, there would have to be
> > significant interest beyond idle discussion. The bounty concept on
> > voip-info.org has been around for a while, but saw only marginal
> > uptake. I've been a part of three or four (or more) paid projects,
> > but only two (the sounds-extras recordings, and the SIP session
> > timers) have actually seen multiple contributors, and the rest were
> > straight-up consulting. What companies or individuals would
actually
> > put money into such a fund, and would it be enough to make it
> > worthwhile or self-sustaining on an ongoing basis? Those of you who
> > re-package Asterisk for commercial purposes but are not active
> > contributors of patches or enhancements: I'm looking at you,
> > specifically.
> >
> >
> > Before these fairly large problems get discussed, I think the first
> > goal in this investigation would really be to see if there is
actually
> > an interest in such an entity, so that last point is the problem I
> > think we can try to solve here first. To try to get some metrics on
> > this that are something other than "around-the-dinner-table"
> > discussions, I've put together a form to collect some data. If you
> > have an interest in putting money towards some general fund for
> > Asterisk development, we're at a stage in the cycle where your input
> > counts. Please take a moment to put your data in the form below.
> > Note that all replies (except for email address) are public, given
the
> > spirit of this whole concept being a community effort.
> >
> > All of the points above are open for discussion. Your comments on
> > this thread are welcome, since this is truly a "community" concept.
> > Since this topic has come up on many occasions, but rarely in a wide
> > forum, this perhaps is a good time to determine if there is truly
> > interest or if the methods that we have currently are sufficient.
If
> > may be the case that there is no interest - that's OK. It may be
the
> > case that there is interest, but there is no viable way to create
such
> > an entity. (Digium, my employer, is not putting itself on the hook
> > for anything in this message - I'm trying to gauge interest ONLY.)
> > You're not obligating yourself to actually paying anyone by filling
> > out these forms, as this is just a quick survey of how large the
> > audience really is.
> >
> > PLEASE keep discussion of policy, structure, and technical details
> > here on the list. Use the form below ONLY for cataloging your
> > willingness to pay for Asterisk work via some idealized mechanism.
> > If you're a coder, a survey about that may follow later which
captures
> > your willingness to work for money, but I suspect that's a pretty
> > well-
> > known truism that needs little confirmation.
> >
> > Feel free to forward this note to others (your boss, your
co-workers,
> > other less-involved Asterisk coders) who may have an interest in
this
> > type of funding approach. I figure a month would be a reasonable
time
> > for letting this form collect data, but that's open for discussion
as
> > well.
> >
> >
> > Form for your input:
> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?key=pmllU1ebPNlhUl_3QHUqvAg
> >
> > Results:
> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pmllU1ebPNlgCMhLQ2FaZRA
> >
> >
> > JT
> >
> > ---
> > John Todd
> > jtodd at digium.com +1-256-428-6083
> > Asterisk Open Source Community Director
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> ---
> John Todd
> jtodd at digium.com +1-256-428-6083
> Asterisk Open Source Community Director
>
>
>
>
>
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