[asterisk-biz] Manners (was: Re: "Whats New at Digium the Asterisk Company")
Matthew Rubenstein
email at mattruby.com
Wed Nov 14 19:40:37 CST 2007
That summary, like the rest of your comments in this thread, is
precisely correct and well packaged in its brevity.
On Wed, 2007-11-14 at 19:47 -0500, Bill Michaelson wrote:
> You've repeatedly failed to grasp that the central issue has not been
> the assertion that the original poster is bigoted, but rather, that he
> cavalierly disregards social conventions in a way that perpetuates
> bigotry, and in a way that is juvenile and inappropriate for this type
> of forum. Various posters have attempted to isolate this point
> explicitly and obliquely, but it keeps getting by you.
>
> Now that he has repeated the behavior in a way that just happens to be
> uncomfortable to you, you feel the need to distance yourself. It's
> ironic because his latest post comes in a context that clearly
> identifies it as satire, albeit very poor quality. Not so for the
> original post: an off-handed gratuitous smear that was just simply in
> poor taste.
>
> Nick Seraphin wrote:
> > Well now that Alex is imploding himself on the list, whether he really is
> > a bigot or not, he sure wants us all to think he is. So I'm not defending
> > Alex anymore. However, I stand by my original position that what he said,
> > if it had been said by anyone else, should STILL not be considered a
> > bigoted statement, and that taken out of the context of Alex's other
> > statements, this by itself was not worth Matthew or anyone else blowing a
> > gasket over.
> >
> > Alex's implosion hurts my argument by association because he was the
> > original subject, but again, said by anyone else who doesn't make other
> > contextual statements to support it, the "gay" thing was not worth getting
> > upset over, nor is it, by itself, bigoted.
> >
> > -- Nick
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Brent Wagner wrote:
> >
> >
> > > For what it's worth: I won't do business with Alex, because his
> > > comment was juvenile. And, yes, there has been a pattern of
> > > mistreatment of homosexuals for a long, long time. And yes, it seems
> > > about as bad ( to me, at least ) as mistreating someone due to race.
> > > But, we're each entitled to our own opinions and actions in response.
> > > So, like I said, I won't deal with Alex. Not because I believe that
> > > he's a homophobe, or a racist, but because I don't believe that a
> > > comment like the one made by him is remotely mature or professional.
> > > By the way, I'm about as conservative as they come. Your assertion
> > > that condemning pejoratives is somehow liberal is silly.
> > >
> > > On Nov 14, 2007, at 12:47 PM, Nick Seraphin wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Matthew Rubenstein wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > People call something that isn't a sexual human "gay" to insult it,
> > > > > because lots of people have treated gay people as really bad
> > > > > things. We
> > > > > don't say a bargainer tried to "jew us down" any more, either, even
> > > > > though "Jew" isn't a bad word when referring to Jewish people (except
> > > > > when people mean it that way).
> > > > >
> > > > > When you use the term for a group of people as an insult to
> > > > > something,
> > > > > you are insulting those people. If people called some things
> > > > > "christian"
> > > > > as an insult, for example, the way people have called things "gay"
> > > > > as an
> > > > > insult for a long time, then "that thing is christian beyond words"
> > > > > would insult not just the thing, but christians, too.
> > > > >
> > > > You're going way off the deep end here, buddy. First, *I* never
> > > > used the
> > > > word. I'm simply saying that calling Alex a bigot for using it in
> > > > the way
> > > > he did is totally going overboard. I'm simply defending Alex on this
> > > > because I don't think it was the end of civilization like you seem
> > > > to be
> > > > indicating now.
> > > >
> > > > You sound absolutely ridiculous. Go back and read what you just
> > > > wrote.
> > > > You're implying that calling an inanimate object "gay" is as bad as
> > > > making
> > > > Black people sit on the back of the bus in the 1950's. You're being
> > > > totally irrational.
> > > >
> > > > Because I defended Alex's benign comment, you now called me a bigot
> > > > and a
> > > > racist (where did racism come into this? Is being gay now it's own
> > > > race?)
> > > > and "people like [me]" are the reason there's oppression in the
> > > > world and
> > > > why life is so horrible in this country. You're obviously liberal
> > > > politically from your statements below... aren't liberals supposed to
> > > > DEFEND free speech and the first amendment? Or maybe you only
> > > > defend YOUR
> > > > right to free speech? Anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot or a
> > > > racist. Classic lines from the MoveOn.org playbook for arguments.
> > > >
> > > > I suppose anytime you don't agree with someone, you just "gang up
> > > > on them" and beat them into submission until they succumb to your
> > > > point
> > > > of view? Doesn't that make YOU the oppressive one here?
> > > >
> > > > If calling something "gay" is such a bigoted slur, then why don't I
> > > > see
> > > > any outrage from the community at all the thousands of times I've
> > > > seen it
> > > > used on TV or in movies in the past 10 years alone?
> > > >
> > > > REAL slurs, like the N-word, don't get used on broadcast television
> > > > anymore and haven't for years. Yet I've often heard actors on
> > > > broadcast
> > > > television saying something is "gay" or "so gay".
> > > >
> > > > If it's such a horrible thing to say, where's the outrage over it's
> > > > common
> > > > use in everyday life? Don't tell me this mailing list is the first
> > > > time
> > > > you've ever seen someone use that word that way in recent history.
> > > >
> > > > Or what about all the times in TV or movies where there's a
> > > > situation in
> > > > which someone questions whether another man is gay or not, and they
> > > > flinch, give a horrified facial expresion, and say "God No!"...
> > > > that's not
> > > > more insulting to gay people than Alex calling an inanimate object
> > > > "gay"
> > > > on a mailing list with a tiny fraction of the viewers of any TV
> > > > network?
> > > > You think what Alex did was worse? Yet the other thing is clearly
> > > > acceptable in today's society.
> > > >
> > > > I guess Hollywood (which is full of gay people too) didn't get your
> > > > memo.
> > > >
> > > > Any other common words or phrases we have to stop using on here so
> > > > as to
> > > > not offend you or oppress you?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > This is a basic point of elementary manners. Ask yourself if you
> > > > > would
> > > > > feel safe in a gay bar full of gay bikers, asked if you like the new
> > > > > version of Windows, and you replied that you didn't, LOUDLY, saying
> > > > > "THAT IS SO GAY". Would you feel safe? Would your rationalizations
> > > > > protect you?
> > > > >
> > > > > You're one of those people who thinks you've carved out a whole
> > > > > zone of
> > > > > bad behavior because you call rules against it "politically"
> > > > > correct, as
> > > > > if the behavior is actually correct, but there's some arbitrary rule
> > > > > against it. "Politically correct" refers to all kinds of correct
> > > > > behavior that had to be forced on bigots by oppressed groups, because
> > > > > bigots, usually in the majority, could be stopped only by a
> > > > > "political"
> > > > > process, like long appeals like this one to people's sense of decency
> > > > > buried under their convenient traditional bigotry.
> > > > >
> > > > > People like you have long insisted from your conveniently protected
> > > > > roles in society that all kinds of ethnic slurs are OK. But their
> > > > > common
> > > > > use is a reminder to people they insult that the insults are
> > > > > accepted,
> > > > > will not be opposed, that the insulter has power to offend that the
> > > > > insulted does not have power to stop. The reality is referred to
> > > > > by the
> > > > > insult. To remind everyone that the target is an acceptable victim,
> > > > > which perpetuates the abuse. Including physical and political
> > > > > abuse. Gay
> > > > > people, even in America, are often second class citizens, with all
> > > > > kinds
> > > > > of rights and privileges denied them. And your calling something
> > > > > "gay"
> > > > > as an arbitrary insult to it is helping keep it that way. If you
> > > > > don't
> > > > > understand that, it's because you understand nothing about
> > > > > politics or
> > > > > how large groups of people operate. And now you're defending your
> > > > > ignorance, just because it's convenient to you.
> > > > >
> > > > Geez, Just call me Hitler so I can invoke Godwin's Law already.
> > > > You're
> > > > almost there with the above statements anyway. :-)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I didn't say that making that slur was the sole action keeping
> > > > > everyone
> > > > > down. But it is part of it. And people failing to confront those
> > > > > little,
> > > > > everyday abuses is the essential part of it. Every time a White
> > > > > person
> > > > > in Alabama let a bus driver direct a Black person to the back of the
> > > > > bus, or any other of the little acceptable codes of racism was
> > > > > indulged
> > > > > rather than confronted, the racism was kept propped up by the person
> > > > > going along as much as by the person enforcing it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also didn't say anything about "Christmas". But your bringing
> > > > > it up
> > > > > refers to you acting like there's some kind of "war on Christmas",
> > > > > the
> > > > > idiotic culture war that lets privileged people like you act like
> > > > > victims, when you're not. A sad perversion of what Christmas is
> > > > > supposed
> > > > > to stand for: the birth of someone who brought compassion for
> > > > > everyone,
> > > > > no matter their station, regardless of how socially acceptable it
> > > > > was to
> > > > > treat some people like animals or objects.
> > > > >
> > > > Well based on that statement, I now know you're a far-left liberal
> > > > nut and
> > > > there's no way I can win this argument with you, so I'm not even
> > > > going to
> > > > try. Go ahead and claim victory... tell me "you're giving up
> > > > because you
> > > > know you're wrong" or whatever canned phrase liberals are using
> > > > this week.
> > > >
> > > > You've proven you're irrational, and I don't have time to waste
> > > > arguing
> > > > with an irrational person.
> > > >
> > > > If someone else, who isn't irrational, wants to discuss this with me
> > > > privately, I'll be happy to continue off-list.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Bigotry is *real*. It ruins lives. Just because you're privileged
> > > > >
> > > > Yes... calling an inanimate object "gay" is ruining lives. The body
> > > > count must be in the thousands. Got to be George Bush's fault!
> > > > Just like
> > > > Katrina!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > BTW, ending your excuses with an insult and a smiley doesn't make it
> > > > > OK. And your saying that your bigotry is no big deal, just because
> > > > > *you*
> > > > > are so casual about it, doesn't mean it really is like that.
> > > > >
> > > > It wasn't an insult. Again, you see something where it doesn't exist.
> > > >
> > > > My God, I still cannot believe that you went this ape over Alex's
> > > > comment.
> > > > I'm literally shaking my head in disbelief as I type this.
> > > >
> > > > -- Nick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> > > ---------------------
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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--
(C) Matthew Rubenstein
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